lagunaloireDo you think this will work?
22.08.2009
Robert O'CarlosIt might work for however many hours it is until Sneijder moves to Inter.
:-)
23.08.2009
FeriAtsI really doubt the Dutch will be playing at all this season, maybe with the exception of Robben.
Isn't christmas tree an extremely defensive formation? Using a defensive formation with attacking players seems an invitation to disaster to me.
23.08.2009
lagunaloireThe Christmas Tree is not really a defensive formation. It's point, I think anyway, is to keep as much possession as possible. I believe it can be deployed in an attacking way.
Kaka and Ronaldo are given free reign to pop up wherever they want to do the most damage ie. score goals, create chances, make runs etc. they are not given any defensive duties. Van der Vaart and Sneider play as a central "box to box" midfielder but they are given more attacking responsibilities, you know, the "Gerrard" position. They are there to support the attacking players and to create opportunities for them, to exploit the gaps created by Kaka and Ronaldo and maybe even fire a shot from long range.
This is just my ideal starting eleven, most of the players are interchangable with the players sitting on the bench.
23.08.2009
SpaceGhostAgree with you lagunaloire - Christmas Tree can be very attacking, just depends on how the personnel choose to play it. It could easily morph into a 4-1-4-1 or 4-1-2-3 when in attack. And think of where Ramos will be turning up.
The key is how you describe the two "Gerrard" mids.
28.08.2009
FeriAtsI can't follow football as much as like, I have to admit. I generally watch Premiere Leauge and La Liga, I sometimes catch a few games from Seria A and Bundesliga. I never saw an attacking 4-3-2-1. Could you guys tell me the team that plays an attacking Chritmas tree? I'd make an effort to watch that.
01.09.2009
SpaceGhostAC Milan has often played 4-3-2-1 in recent past, including a 3-0 victory against Palermo in April. And coincidentally, Kaka was playing in the Attacking Mid position that day.
I didn't actually see that game. Maybe all three of their goals were "negative" ones.
01.09.2009
lagunaloireAC Milan used to play this formation under Carlo Ancelotti. I really love how his team usually keeps most of the ball and the attacking players seem to nip in whenever there is a slight gap or a weakness in the opponents defense.
Barcelona under Frank Rikjaard is a good example of the Christmas Tree formation used in an attacking way. They seemed, to me, to play in a way similar to AC Milan: keeping the ball and applying constant forward pressure. This is a slightly different philosophy to Barcelona under Guardiola where the main idea seems to be attack attack attack. They move the ball up and around the park much more quickly, almost recklessly, throwing players forward with wild abandon. The reason why they can pull it off is because they have players who have the technical and tactical skill and experiance to play in such a demanding way.
It's risky but it's bloody brilliant to watch. That is, if it is done well. Can you imagine what would happen if you tried doing what Guardiola does with any team other than Barcelona? Now that would be a disaster zone.
02.09.2009
FeriAtsI have to disagree with both examples.
Rijkaard's team was playing a 4-1-2-3 or 4-1-3-2, both with a holding midfielder.
Milan generally played 4-3-1-2, almost always with 2 strikers.
02.09.2009
SpaceGhostAgree with FeriAts on Rijkaard's Barca - they were usually playing 4-1-2-3 or some kind of 4-3-3.
But Milan in 2008/2009 Serie A played 4-3-2-1 just over half the time. The rest was usually 4-3-1-2. How different these two formations looked when the ball was in play is open for debate.
02.09.2009
lagunaloireBarcelona did not play with three forwards under Frank Rikjaard. He played a 4-1-2-2-1 formation which is basically a Christmas Tree with a holding midfielder.
I'm not sure how much credibilty you can give, if any, to wikipedia but check this out:
Look under Christmas Tree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_(association_football)
Coaching philosophy and style.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Rijkaard
I hope those links work.
I don't remember Barca playing 4-1-3-2 at all. You're gonna have to explain to me how he did it FeriAts.
02.09.2009
FeriAtsRijkaard's Barcelona was not too different Guardiola's tactically. Here's what I can come up with from top of my head:
It doesn't look like Christmas tree to me. You would need 3 defensive mids to call it a Christmas tree, I suppose.
03.09.2009
SpaceGhostThere is a point where formations become meaningless and all that matters are the types of players in those positions and how they will MOVE relative to each other.
I think your comment FeriAts, "you would need 3 defensive mids to call it a Christmas tree," perfectly illustrates the difference in how the two of you see this formation. What lagunaloire has described here is not a formation with 3 defensive mids if you think about the personnel he has selected. I think he sees two of them more as shuttlers, like the side mids in a tight diamond 4-4-2 (or 4-3-1-2 if you like) and the two attacking mids as a pair of second strikers both starting in and running out of "the hole".
03.09.2009
nvrThere's always this fuzziness around formations. One can call what FeriAts has drawn a 4-1-4-1 instead of a 4-1-2-3 and we can argue for countless hours over what it is.
But I guess, the reason why Christmas tree is considered inherently defensive, is that it was brought to football fans attention by Jose Mourinho's Chelsea. That team was so defensive that Abramovich sacked Mourinho after all he won, because Chelsea were not playing beautifully.
04.09.2009
SpaceGhostThat's funny considering that Acelotti is the new boss.
04.09.2009
