FeriAtsIt turns out that football is a lot bigger in USA than I imagined. I want to start this topic to learn a bit more about it. I appreciate if you guys from accross the pond enligten me a bit.
Here's the first question: As far as I know, you do not have relegation in MLS. How does this effect the league? Once a team is out of the race for play off spots or has guaranteed it, what motivates them? Here in Europe relegation fight is a big part of the game. Guaranteed drama, heart break en masse, big financial implications, etc...Would you prefer relegation over your current set up?
12.01.2010
Robert O'CarlosI guess there just aren't the number of teams of a similar level to make a 2 or more tier league workable.
:-)
In terms of popularity, what is it they say? Soccer is the 5th sport in the States? As an example, that would maybe equate to tennis here. On that basis, soccer would struggle to compete for adequate support, surely?
But, like FeriAts, that's only my take on US soccer from across the water. It would be great to hear from someone a little more knowledgeable.
I do like a lot of the set up in the States tho. The salary capping/designated earner rule would be an absolute boon here to even up the standard of the leagues.
Although that would have a serious effect on British clubs being able to compete in Europe ...
:-)
12.01.2010
jmancubsfan As an American that has grown up playing the beautiful game I feel obligated to jump in here. I have to say that I think "soccer," as we call it, is definitely a growing sport over here but still yet, I feel that most of the fans over here are only people who have played the game at some point. It doesn't seem to have that all-encompassing appeal yet that American football has over here.
What I do know though is that it seems that those of us over here who have played the game at some level are very passionate about our country competing and winning on the international stage.
Honestly as a soccer fan and an avid student of the game, it may surprise you to hear that I don't really watch the MLS much at all and that's mostly because it just isn't successful enough even over here to get the TV coverage it deserves.
My guess would be that the current setup of the league, which seems to mirror the setup of the other professional sports leagues in America, is designed to level the playing field from an owner's standpoint. Given the rich history and support of the game everywhere else in the world, every other team has a much stronger foundation and fan base to stand on if they get relegated to a lower league. But over here, it's really all about the money and if a team were to be seen as less competitive (as in playing in a lower league) it would likely start a snowball effect of declining attendance and income that would end in that team (and as a result a lower league or division and possibly the entire league) going bankrupt very quickly. I really like the multi-tiered system and I personally think it could eventually work over here but only after the game has survived on the professional level long enough to instill "die-hard" fans as we like to call them. In American football we do seem to have a problem every season where a team will clearly be headed into the playoffs and a result, they rest their key players in their last game. Obviously this leads to many unhappy fans who bought tickets months ahead of time and expected to see their heroes and a competitive game.
It's interesting to me to wonder what might happen if teams over on your side of the pond had to play other teams that would normally be several divisions above or below them more often, as though there were no divisions at all. It seems to me that your setup may allow teams in the lower divisions to progress slowly and climb the ladder by playing teams at their caliber without worry of being embarrassed in a 9-1 defeat once a month and losing fans.
13.01.2010
SpaceGhostFor me relegation is something still kind of strange and foreign. It simply doesn't exist in American sports. And like jman says, the MLS is patterned off of NFL and NBA leauges, which are about owners having franchises and profitable, protected investments. They would never let their revenue sharing league allow something as profit threatening as relegation to occur.
This article talks a little about how NFL teams share revenue. http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/jan/13/the-glazers-tampa-buccaneers
13.01.2010
SpaceGhostAt a grass-roots level I can tell the story of my highschool soccer team. Back in spring 1991 I was 13 years old, and signed a petition some of my friends had to get a soccer team at the highschool I'd attend in the fall (back then there were very few school teams in my state). I hadn't played soccer since I was 8, but thought it would be fun. So I signed.
In the fall we got a team on a trial basis. Highschool soccer is in the winter (same time as basketball season) I think so that it won't interfere with the spring and fall club leagues. So, we had a team made up of a bunch of american football players and track sprinters who weren't good at basketball but wanted to do something in the winter. Ugly as it was, we had fun playing soccer as only american football players would. Don't ask what that means. :)
Within two years the basketball coach was complaining that he couldn't win because all the best athletes were joining the soccer team instead of the basketball team. Last year I played in an "alumni" game where a bunch of us "old" guys play against the current highschool team. A friend who played that first year and later played college and USL (minor league) soccer was there, and we both commented that the team we started 18 or so years before was full of geniune soccer players, with technique and understanding of shape that we never conceived of when we were their age.
When I look at other places, and talk to other people, I see lots of similar stories.
13.01.2010
nvrThe whole point of relegation is to keep a certain level of quality in a league. American sports achieve the same goal by providing weaker teams easy access to talent through draft and caps system. I am yet to be convinced the latter works better.
14.01.2010
SpaceGhostBoth systems do, as you say, attempt to, "keep a certain level of quality in a league." But I think you have to differentiate more in how each is trying to do that.
Relegation prevents teams in a league from dropping below some level of quality, because they will get relegated. And it does raise the level of competitiveness by giving weaker teams a reason to try and beat better teams, again, to avoid relegation. But it does nothing to address the consistent disparity in how good teams at the top of the table are compared to teams not just at the bottom, but also the middle. For example, the "Big 4"? How long have the top 4 teams been the top 4 teams, present year excluded?
In the NFL, for example, the goal of drafts and salary caps, is to pull all teams towards the middle in terms of quality, so that there will be more competition. Certainly there are dynasties that last for a little while, but on the whole there is much more change-up year to year in who makes the play-offs and who does not. What it fails to do though, is prevent the sustained inferiority of some teams year after year. The Detroit Lions are an example.
14.01.2010
nvrRe:How long have the top 4 teams been the top 4 teams, present year excluded?
I guess top 4 formed when Chelsea were bought by the Russian. Liverpool went in and out of top flight.
I guess it's only Arsenal and Man U that has been up there consistently, and that's due to their managers rather than anythin else.
My point is English League fluctuates as well, maybe not as much as US sports but it does.
14.01.2010
FeriAtsGreat replies, I appreciate it.
I got another question, inspired by SpaceGhost's grassroots comments. What's the career path of a typical professional soccer player in the USA?
Over here, you'd start with your local team's youth system, do trials with better teams and switch if you could impress. These youth teams, or academies are staffed with ex professionals.
I understand schools and colleges play a major role in talent development in American sports. Do the coaches have professional sports background as well? Or are they just teachers?
15.01.2010
Robert O'CarlosI'm not sure I can necessarily agree that the English game fluctuates very much, at least when you get to the highest levels. When a team gets a European Cup place for finishing in the top 4 (why bother calling it the Champions League when you qualify by finishing 4th? :-D), a good run can be worth 30m (sterling). Some clubs in the second tier could be bought for that amount. Is it 30m that is awarded for finishing bottom of the Premier League these days too?
The point being that there's a distorted correlation in the step up to, and even within, the Premier League which will always help keep a team around the same rough level, bar a disastrous season.
:-)
I often wish football in general could lose the influence of money and get back to a more competitive state, throughout the leagues. And that's a United fan saying that.
:-D
It's great to get some replies from our US correspondents by the way! How are the fans over there? Here, they can be very tribal and aggressive towards the opposition. Is it more good natured competitive rivalry over there?
15.01.2010
SpaceGhostIn regards to FeriAts question about career path of professional players, that is kind of a tough question. But I'll answer the best I can.
In the 80's there weren't many elementary or high schools that had soccer teams (at least in my state-Louisiana), so the majority of soccer that was played was by club teams, called select teams, or premier teams. These teams were amateur teams with no affiliations to larger organizations, but membership on the team was determined by tryout (opposed to recreational teams). The parents of the players bore most or all of the expense of uniforms, travel, etc. The coaches of these teams varied alot in experience. Few were ex-pro (there simply weren't many ex-pro's around), many were ex-college, and some had zero soccer playing experience. One example of the latter is John Knighten, current coach of the Southern University Women's Soccer Team, who never played soccer but coached a select team in Baton Rouge for 23 years, and coached current MLS coach Jason Kreis. The goal of most players on these select teams was to get a scholarship with a collegiate soccer team.
In the 90's there was a large increase in the number of high schools with soccer teams, and this has become increasingly another avenue to collegiate play. I'm an example of this, as I never played select soccer, but played 4 years of collegiate soccer in the NCAA. But generally select teams are where the best soccer talent is developed for the collegiate game.
17.01.2010
SpaceGhostThe youth level also has other playing opportunities, one being the ODP teams (Olympic Development Program) which is a program set up by the USSF to create teams of elite players in each state which could develop players for the younger age group national teams. Also, there are some current developments where MLS teams are beginning to become affiliated with youth select teams. An example of this is the Chicago Fire Juniors, which is an attempt to turn some select teams into soccer academies run by the Chicago Fire Organization. In the case of the Chicago Fire Juniors, they recently took over the Lafreniere select soccer club in New Orleans, and also have Chicago Fire Juniors teams in Illinois. These coaches are probably ex-pros.
My guess is that at this time most coaches are ex-college or ex-professional. Also, the USSF has started issuing coaching badges, which helps a little with evaluating resumes. Often youth coaches will coach a select team in the fall and spring, and a high school team during the winter, since the seasons don't overlap much.
As I said, the goal of most select team players used to be to get a college scholarship for soccer, but that is changing some.
17.01.2010
FeriAtsSo is there college to MSL? I was quite shocked when I saw the attendence figures for NCAA basketball and football.
19.01.2010
