Ravenbarber
This is my qualitative estimation of the relative strengths of the Barcelona and Real Madrid teams of the last season in numerical values. I chose Real Madrid because they are the second best team in the world after this already legendary Barcelona team.
You could say my ratings are subjective, but I think it is pretty accurate and based on these values, it is obvious that Real Madrid never really had a chance. These ratings do not take into account team work, or even the Mourinho factor that became so instrumental in Madrid’s mentality at the tail-end of the season. They are purely an assessment of the quality of player in their positions. In my estimation, a player can only ever get a ten if they are one of the all time greats in their positions, and at the height of their game, which Xavi and Messi both were this season. It was obvious for all to see in the final, and in the 5-0 drubbing that Madrid suffered earlier in the season. In my opinion, they are the only players in the world right now deserving of a ten rating. The last player who would have been worthy of a ten rating would have to be Maldini, although he wasn’t a ten anymore when he retired. Before him, Zidane, if you took his whole career and his stature into account.
I think it is very, very rare to have two tens in one team. Can anyone think of the last time that happened? Not just in terms of a player’s overall stature, but the form of their game at a particular point.
I think some folks might think a 9.5 is too high for Dani Alves, but their is now denying the dynamism he adds and how fundamental he is to this legendary team’s style of play. Villa dipped towards the end of the season, but overall, everyone knows that he is always dangerous, and he proved in the final how sharp he still is when he isn’t fatigued or lacking in confidence He is a quality player.
Madrid fans might think I am being a little unkind to their team, but player for player and collectively, they are not quite the finished product.
20.06.2011
demografyRonaldo 9,5? - 10
Benzema 8,5? - 8 max
20.06.2011
RavenbarberI beg to differ, demografy. Ronaldo is a fantastic player, but a ten he is not; just a whisker short, perhaps. So too Iniesta; I put the two of them in roughly in the same category, as magnificent players of their eras, but not quite all time greats. If he was a ten, Real Madrid would probably be champions. His position is very modern and athletic - he is an immensely fit player who uses his incredible pace to get into central positions from wide areas. Technically, he isn't anywhere near as fantastic as Messi and Xavi. His mentality can also be suspect at times. Unlike Messi, who almost always gets back up from a tackle to win the ball back and who is a largely unselfish player and hardly ever allows himself a good sulk, Ronaldo can sometimes act as if the pitch is his domain alone.
I think that when Ronaldo eventually loses his pace, he will lose his edge, because he offers teams little beside his aggressive winning spirit (except when the chips are down and it is needed most) and exceptional athletic ability and ruthless finishing prowess, elements which are beyond question. He blows at build-up play and is absolutely rubbish at pressing or defending. A great player, but not a true legend. Nor will he ever be, I don't think. Sorry if that bursts your bubble. Of course you are welcome to disagree with me.
Thanks for the comment.
20.06.2011
mbillington10I think the confusion stems from your title, as it sounds as if you are giving them a rating for how well they have played this season, but on reading the explanation you have rated them according to how good you think that player is, rather than how they have played.
Going on ratings as to how good a player they are I think most of them are spot on. Benzema is perhaps a little too high when you consider how big a failure he has been at the Bernabeu (cost £30m, yet when Higuain was injured Mourinho played Ronaldo and Ozil as the centre forward until Adebayor was brought in). One other tweak would be Carvalho, who is a much better defender than Pepe and has been crucial to solidifying a defence that has been very weak structurally for a number of years. The importance of his organisation and ability shouldn't be overlooked in favour of the more flashy Pepe.
You are right to give Messi a 10 and Ronaldo a 9.5, as his selfishness and individuality means he will never be as valuble to a team as Messi is to Barcelona. Giving Xavi a ten is more debatable, not that I disagree, just that it's harder to justify than Messi's.
20.06.2011
RavenbarberThanks for your insightful comment, mbillington10. Really cool avatar, by the way.
You’re right to point out that the title of my entry might be a tad confusing. Actually, my post is supposed to be a combination of how well they have played this season, but also the point at which they find themselves in their careers at the moment. So it is as much performance based as evolutionary.
There’s no denying that Benzema sucked at the beginning of the year, but he showed his quality towards the end, and I think he is worthy of an 8.5. The funny thing is that Benzema is actually a false nine, not an out and out striker. I think the primary reasons that he has struggled so much in his time at the Bernabeau is because of a (reported) lax work ethic in training and also because no one hjas really figured out until much later that he is actually a false nine who likes to drop deep toward the left hand side and cut inside to take a shot. I think he bears more than a striking resemblance to Nicholas Anelka. I think they are very similar players. The problem for Benzema is that Ozil likes to operate in the channel that Benzema likes to drop into, whereas Ronaldo plays close to the touch line on the left and likes to cut inside into the position Benzeme would find himself in. As Mourinho, who as far as I know has never had to accommodate a false nine in any of his teams, wised up to this, I think he switched Ronaldo to the right hand side a lot more, with Di Maria playing on the left.
I would rate Higuaín exactly the same as Benzema, as a very solid and often fantastic 8.5 forward. He is a more traditional centre forward, but is too often wasteful, so that hurts his score.
I think Mourinho has wised up to the fact that against Barcelona, you cannot play a traditional centre forward; he will just become isolated as the match progresses, as Chicharito served to show in the CL final. According to Goal.com, Mourinho will switch to a 4-3-3 for next season, to accommodate new signing Nuri Sahin in the midfield. Reportedly, his preferred front three will be Ronaldo, Ozil and Benzema. That should be very interesting indeed.
For me, Carvalho becomes a liability when he plays against really fantastic, technical teams like Barcelona. He has too often looked completely hapless against the Catalans. I think he is too old as well to go up against really quick footed players, like Messi and Iniesta.
This brings me to a point: since the false nine is now an officially recognised position in football, and most teams would prefer to play with one, because you essentially have two players in one, I wonder how that will affect the development of centre forwards in the future. As Messi and Van Persie has shown, they can make even the best centre backs look completely clueless. Carvalho is such a player. Should be an interesting development.
20.06.2011
RavenbarberThis is how I think Real Madrid might play next season, according to Goal.com.
20.06.2011
20.06.2011
20.06.2011
mbillington10Fantastic analysis. I can see your point about Benzema, he does like to operate in the space Ozil and Ronaldo usually play in. This highlights a danger I have noticed when signing a successful player from a team who's strategy is designed to maximise that one player (e.g. Benzema at Lyon, and Torres at Liverpool), when they move to new clubs whose system is designed around other players, it takes them much longer to adjust.
I also understand your point on Carvalho, fantastic against a traditional centre forward, but more succeptible to a false nine. Perhaps you were rating Carvalho on future potential and I was rating him on past success.
I would be sceptical of Goal.com's prediction, with it being so early in the transfer window it is very difficult to see how teams are going to line up in August. I also dont think that Mourinho trusts Benzema, despite his excellent form in the second half of the season. Mourinho won't tolerate individuals who won't sacrifice themselves for the team (such as his relationship with Balotelli at Inter). While Benzema has improved his defensive work rate under Mourinho, I'm yet to be convinced he has the managers full confidence.
Interesting discussion of the false nine. Football tactics are all about the manipulation and denial of space. Players like Tevez, Messi, Van Persie, and Suarez have all offered a new interpretation of the centre forward role, an interpretation which defenders haven't figured out how to combat yet. Do they man mark and risk breaking the defensive line which other runners could penetrate, or do they hold the line and face the possibility of technical players running at them. Will be interesting to see the tactical developments in the new season.
20.06.2011
RavenbarberThanks again for a wonderful response, mbillington10. Yeah, I should have been a little more sceptical about goal.com’s prediction. It is silly season, after all. Should be very interesting to see how the false nine role changes football strategy for the future. Perhaps the sweeper will make a comeback. I am sure the ever reliable Jonathan Wilson ( here http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/writers/jonathan_wilson/archive/ and here http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/jonathanwilson) will tackle this at some stage. He already wrote this about the false nine: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/oct/27/the-question-false-nines-jonathan-wilson. Good reading, all. If you don’t know him yet, have fun.
20.06.2011
JimmyGuitaristIniesta should without doubt be a 10. Busquets is probably the most underestimated player about at the moment, and you've hardly under-estimated him by rating him a 9 but I'd rate him as a 10; barring the diving, but if you actually watch Barca every week, not one player dives. Madrid were the ones who started with the dirty tactics in that recent Clasico, and Barcelona just responded; but back on-topic.
Alves should also be a 10 because he's just made that RWB his own almost. He has just a massive effect on Barcelona's attacks, and I can easily rate him as one of the best around right now. You're about right with Villa, but had he carried on his mid-season form, he'd have been a 10 too. Pedro's been out a lot of the season, so I suppose your rating's about right for him. Pique should be a 10, because he's just so bloody consistant. The job he has to do for Barcelona is so hard, because him and Puyol keep such a high-line and they still manage to defend those quickly sprung counter-attacks what so many teams use as there only method of attacking against Barca. Puyol was injured a lot obviously, but the job he does do when he's playing is next-to-none. Best defender in-my-opinion. 9's a fair rating for him though considering how much he's been out this season.
I havn't got much to say about Madrid. It seems crazy saying that Ronaldo isn't a 10, but I agree with you. He just doesn't have the clever footballing mind of the Barca team. I rate every single player on the Barca first team higher than Ronaldo.
I liked Ozil in the World Cup, and when I saw him for the first time, I actually thought he'd be good with Barcelona because of his vision and passing ability. I personally think he's wasted some-what at Madrid where you have just the most negative coach.
20.06.2011
ars4nal10 out of 10 implies the player was perfect or near perfect. In that regard, only Messi should have 10. Ronaldo's overly selfish, Alves is a defensive liabiliy, Busquests, although brilliant and underrated in my opinion, was not that good to merit a perfect score. Even Xavi, for all his creative brilliance, did miss some of the season through injury and doesn't score enough goals to be perfect. The same said of Iniesta although he is starting to get more.
Giving out 5 perfect 10's in a team devalues it
21.06.2011
mbillington10Since you've highlighted those excellent website, I though I would also offer another tactics website that you may already be aware of, but if you haven't heard of it I think its a great resource.
http://www.zonalmarking.net/
If Jonathon Wilson is the tactics King, then Michael Cox is the Prince. This website has an article emphasising your point about the importance of Dani Alves.
I'm really enjoying the discussion on this forum though, it is refreshingly insightful in comparison to most other football websites.
I think this Barcelona side is the greatest of all time, so I can emphasise with JimmyGuitarist handing out 10s as it is difficult to overemphasise the importance of players such as Busquets, Alves, and Iniesta. But I think judging by the criteria Ravenbarber highlighted for a rating of 10, perhaps, as Ars4nal highlighted, too many 10s would devalue the ranking.
21.06.2011
RavenbarberThaks for the suggest, mbillington10. Know Zonal Marking all too well. Fantastic site, with an even better comments section. (I often find the comments better than the actual reportage on the website, not to take anything away from the writer. Loved his Dani Alves article.)
There's so many fantastic and interactive football blogs out there that I feel many of them of them have eclipsed the official football websites I frequent.
Here's an update from goal.com on Mourinho's 4-3-3 plans for next season: http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/3277/la-liga/2011/06/21/2541270/magic-numbers-why-real-madrid-coach-jose-mourinho-is-set-to
21.06.2011
Ravenbarber
Please allow me to explain what in my opinion constitutes a 10 player. A player who gets a ten rating, for me or from anyone else, should already be confirmed as an all-time great. They should be in their playing prime as well. No use rating someone like Maldini a ten when has was still playing right before he retired, although as part of his legacy, if you took his entire career into account, he was a ten overall. I don't think anyone would argue with that.
For me the only other "ten" player out there at the moment, besides Messi and Xavi, is Buffon, but that is only if you take his stature over his entire career into account. I don't think his current game is at a magical "ten" level.
For me, a playing "ten" is a one of a kind of player, an absolute genius in his position and perhaps even someone who personifies their position and to take it further, their era. They are hallmark players from whichever era they come from who make their presence count on a pitch in an absolutely fundamental way, but especially in big games. They are players who make average teams good and who give great teams an almost insurmountable edge.
There are only a number of "ten" players in the history of the game and for me they include the likes of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Di Stefano, Puskas, Beckenbauer, Yashin, Banks, Bobby Moore, George Best, Baresi, Maldini, Platini, Brazilian Ronaldo (but only in his prime), Schmeichel, Van Basten, Buffon, Zidane etc. In the gaming world they have a name for marquee games like Zelda and Metroid as A+++ titles, and I think that term could apply to these players as well. I would happily add Xavi and Messi to this company, as players who leave no question as to their imprint on a game. They're not always at their best, but when they are on the pitch, a match always has a different character. I don't think you could say the same about Ronaldo, who can become invisible, especially against Barcelona and Spain. Also, he relies on service from other players and cannot really make things happen on the ball like Xavi and Messi, or even someone like Ronaldo of old, although the Brazilian was an almost equally selfish player.
Iniesta isn’t quite a ten player for me, because he hasn’t quite perfected his style of playing as much as Xavi has. If Xavi is in a position to play a final ball, wherever he may be on the pitch, the chances are 9/10 that he will deliver that perfect ball. You cannot quite say the same thing about Iniesta, who blows a little hotter and colder than Xavi. Xavi is always 100% Xavi, no matter the occasion. Also, Xavi can function better without Iniesta than Iniesta without Xavi. Xavi just goes about his way bossing a game, no matter who is around him. For a small player, that is incredible.
There's no such thing as a perfect player, nor will there ever be, and a “ten” shouldn’t be mistaken as such. But you do get players with varying degrees of completeness. That said, that shouldn't really have bearing on a "ten" player. For instance, you could argue that Ronaldo is more complete than Messi in a variety of ways, most notably heading, but Messi is so unfairly superior in the areas that define him, namely dribbling, finishing, penetration, passing, possession play, vision, that there really is no contest.
If Schweinsteiger could replicate the form he showed in the World Cup week in, week out, he could become a prime example of a modern-day complete player who is also a ten.
Feel free to dig into my “considered” logic. For the record, I personally feel that my argument is pretty solid, but there might be contradictions I’m not aware of. Any comments would be welcome.
21.06.2011
RavenbarberHere's another little add-on: "tens" are very often talismans (talismen?), but being the latter doesn't mean that you are a ten. (Wayne Rooney being a particular case in point.)
Something on my mind: would anyone rate Dennis Bergkamp as being a ten at any point in his career?
21.06.2011
JimmyGuitarist@ ars4nal -
I was judging my ratings on this years performances, and it does seem as though I've devalued the ratings somewhat, but I do just genuinely think that those players I rated as 10 were perfect this/last season.
I don't know how you can devalue Xavi because he doesn't get enough goals. And actually, I was impressed at how good he was in-front of goal anyway, but it's not his priority to get the goals. It's his job to make the goals.
I don't base my opinion on how good a player is on how many goals they get. I base my opinion on how good they are in the positions they play in, and I can't understand how you don't consider Barcelona's renowned midfield as 'perfect'.
I agree on the Ronaldo opinion though. He's selfish, but basing the rating on how he was this/last season, then I'd say the 9.5 is about right, merely because of how many goals he got; and I know I've just said I don't rate how good a player is on how many goals they get, but he's a forward and it's his job to get goals, so he hasn't done that bad of a job really.
21.06.2011
RavenbarberGood points, JimmyGuitarist. I believe Ronaldo's goal tally in this year's league is misleading. Just read this from Jonathan Wilson:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jonathan_wilson/06/01/individual.awards/index.html
Ronaldo's goals can only mean something if they were in the service of the team winning titles. As such, that tally of his is super hollow, especially considering his team were trying help him achieve that goal, instead of him having helped them win matches or beat Barcelona when it mattered most.
I agree with you that Xavi does what he does as perfectly as any player can, and has done in the history of the game. He is a playmaker in the truest sense, in that he makes the team play primarily, but he also creates chances. To me he plays with a lot more purpose and versatility than someone like Pirlo, and to me he is a better player than even Pirlo at his prime. I had the pleasure of watching Xavi play against Portugal in the World Cup in South Africa, and what a pleasure it was. He is just a fantastic footballer, a real treasure and as entertaining to watch in his purposeful manner as any show boater out there.
21.06.2011
JimmyGuitarist@ Ravenbarber -
Good artical by Jonathan Wilson. Agreed with everything he said about Ronaldo.
Pirlo in his prime was certainly one of the best there's ever been in the position, but Xavi's definitely gone beyond him in my opinion. The way Xavi just controls games is just bloody amazing, and Iniesta for that matter. He was just as amazing as what he is for Barcelona for Spain; and again, Iniesta too.
22.06.2011
