RavenbarberThe key player here is new signing Fabio Coentrao. Because of his all action nature, he will essentially play more than one position, but nominally on the left, to provide cover for Marcelo, but also to allow the latter to come inside from his deep his position, something that will be incredibly difficult for Barcelona to cope with. Marcelo is a natural goal scorer and will be like a left back version of Frank Lampard, against Barcelona at least.
Ozil will play in an almost false nine position, to allow Ronaldo to remain wide. Ronaldo doesn't work as a lone centre forward, because he cannot play a false nine role because he cannot create and also cannot make he slanted runs from out wide to get into central positions that make him the threat that he is. With Sahin complementing Alonso and Khedira in midfield, there is no need for Pepe to play in midfield.
A lot will depend on Coentrao and especially his ability to provide crosses for Ronaldo, who might be expected to replicate his Manchester United days of playing on the right and rushing into the centre to get on to the end of things. Alternatively, Marcelo coming inside of Coentrao might result in the Brazilian delivering a simpler final ball for Ronaldo. Ozil and Sahain will collaborate in the centre to spring counter attacks, for this Madrid will still play a containing game against Barca, but will now be more equipped than ever to deal with the threat of Iniesta, Xavi and Messi in the middle.
I think with Mourinho stealing his men for those encounters, as per usual, Barcelona will find Real Madrid an altogether more formidable opponent this year and incredibly difficult to play against. I think the Catalans are in for an extremely taxing, frustrating and even disappointing series of games against Madrid. Always easier to counter than be original, but that is what Mourinho's philosophy is based on. Bring it on, I say. Should be epic.
01.08.2011
JimmyGuitaristWith Mourinho's philosophy, Madrid simply don't stand a chance if Barca score first, which is most likely to happen when they're constantly attacking. Sure, he can change things to be more attacking with the subs he has, but that's when Barca just toy with you. Imagine how demoralising it is when they score and just carry on the same after they've cored? It must be so hard mentaly.
Mourinho shouldn't play so negatively with so much attacking talent on his team, it don't make any sense. It's not the Italian league. The matches are still interesting tactically to watch though.
Guus Hiddink said it right, about the most recent Barca-Madrid matches;
"Itwas fantastic how Barcelona handled the situation.
“At one point in the match the entire Barca team just stood still in their own half, because 11 Madrid players were just defending in their own half. They did not want to play football.
“It was obvious this was Mourinho’s choice to play the game like this. Tough. Barcelona did not fall for the trap.”
01.08.2011
Ravenbarber
Interesting comment JimmyGuitarist, although I detect the smallest sliver of a Barca-bias in your tone.
There's no denying that Barca will be formidable yet again, but I think this Madrid team will be as well. Should make for some fascinatingly epic games when the two teams eventually meet.
I don't expect the matches to be open at all. I think they will be tactical battles of attrition yet again. with both teams not willing to concede an inch. Madrid can only adapt to how Barca plays, hence this formation is purely for when they face Barca; it is defensive, for sure, but with a buyout clause to attack, or counter, when the occasion presents itself. Madrid are now rife with counterattacking masters, chiefly Ronaldo of course, but also Coentrao, Ozil and Khedira. No team can hope to face Barca on their own philosophical terms. You have to be prepared to watch the ball being passed around you for the majority of the match; this Barca team is so technically gifted that they decide the character and form of any match they play, regardless of the opposition. All you can do is soak it up, frustrated them, and then try and grab a goal through a quick counter or a set-piece. I believe this Madrid team will be the best ever team equipped to deal with how Barca plays.
This post was in part inspired by the following piece:
http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial/2011/08/01/2599509/flexible-friend-why-real-madrids-30m-man-fabio-coentrao-could-be-
I do believe Coentrao will be a major player for them this year, especially in the Barca clashes where you need very a particular kind of player to stand a chance against Pep’s men, chiefly one with incredible stamina and determination.
01.08.2011
RavenbarberBy the way JimmyGuitarist, how do you think Barca will "adapt" to playing this lean, mean, fighting Madrid, especially now that they got to fit Alexis Sanchez into the team?
01.08.2011
mbillington10I was hoping someone would do a thread like this, particularly from a Barcelona perspective as it is difficult to see Sanchez making the starting line up initially. I'm sure he'll develop into a first team regular, but I get the feeling he will be eased into the Barcelona system through substitute appearances, before developing into a key player.
It is dangerous to read too much into pre-season friendlies. Speaking from a Liverpool perspective, we lost 5-0 to Mainz in 2006 with Reina, Gerrard, Alonso and Torres all starting, but we ended up in the Champions League final that year. Man Utd were beaten by Guadalajara last season, and Lampard played in defensive midfield for Chelsea in their last match. A lot of experimenting goes on in pre-season that never materialises once the competitive matches get under way.
The interesting question this season is whether Mourinho will continue with his ultra-defensive tactics, given how much pressure and criticism he received last year. Perhaps his new role as Real Madrid’s 'Sporting Manager' is designed to protect himself from such criticisms, and ensure he can continue to use attrition tactics against Barcelona, given how important the head-to-head matches are in La Liga. However, the availability of Higuain will surely make him reconsider his striker-less formation, especially as he has expressed a wish to sign another striker. Ravenbarber you are spot on, this Real Madrid squad is better equipped to face Barcelona, given the money they have spent/will spend on new signings (possibly Neymar/Adebayor). It will be interesting to see how Barcelona adapt to Real’s likely tactics.
You would have thought that with a full summer transfer window behind him, going into his second season, and with less injuries, Mourinho would attack Barcelona this time, wouldn’t he?...
01.08.2011
NorfLondenWhomever who bus, Mourinho will not be able to beat Barcelona conclusively. Apart from buying Barcelona players obviously and barring injuries, suspensions etc...
His only viable tactic to get anything out of a Barcelona game is to park the bus and hope to cause trouble at the break. For that, he doesn't need to spend big. The squad he has is more than enough.
He'd better concentrate on not dropping points against other teams and aim for a draw against Barca.
01.08.2011
NorfLondenThe sentence should have started as "Whomever he buys".
01.08.2011
JimmyGuitarist@Ravenbarber -
"How do you think Barca will "adapt" to playing this lean, mean, fighting Madrid" - Well you more less said it, Barca could care less what team they're playing against, or what players they're playing against. They'd play the same if they were against Luton Town F.C.
I am biased to a point, and I'm sure most of you have gathered from every post I've done here that I'm another Barcelona-fanboy. But don't you just think that Barcelona are just miles ahead of any team on the planet at the moment? I mean, whether you're a fan-boy or not, surely you'd have to accept it.
Yes, Madrid could definitely catch them out on a counter-attack if they get past there first load of pressure, but the most recent games showed that Barcelona hardly ever fall for the trap now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEoyNVHpp7w
01.08.2011
JimmyGuitaristOh, and about Sanchez - I rate him. I think Pep'll whip him into shape.
01.08.2011
Ravenbarber-"How do you think Barca will "adapt" to playing this lean, mean, fighting Madrid" - Well you more less said it, Barca could care less what team they're playing against, or what players they're playing against. They'd play the same if they were against Luton Town F.C.-
In a manner of speaking yes, JimmyGuitarist, and I might have implied that Barca don’t adapt to whom they play against, but as we saw in especially the first leg of the Champions League Semi-Final, Barcelona did adapt their playing style for that particular occasion, because if they didn’t, they would have paid a price. Their game was still possession orientated, but far more cautiously, almost defensively so. If you can remember, Dani Alves in particular was far more subdued than he usually is, very seldom venturing beyond the half-way line. That is partly because I think he has the fear of god of Angel Di Maria, but also because Barca didn’t want to repeat the same mistakes made at the San Siro the previous year against Inter when their naive, maybe even arrogant adherence to their “philosophy”, especially in light of having had to travel to Milan by coach, cost them very dearly. In that way, and it pains me to say this, they are different to Arsenal, who never adapts and almost comically (but still painfully) pays the price again and again. I think they have a sort of disdainful respect for Madrid, and at that stage it showed particularly, because Madrid seemed to gather mental strength as the year progressed and was quite the formidable unit when the final El Clasicos rolled around.
-“I am biased to a point, and I'm sure most of you have gathered from every post I've done here that I'm another Barcelona-fanboy. But don't you just think that Barcelona are just miles ahead of any team on the planet at the moment? I mean, whether you're a fan-boy or not, surely you'd have to accept it.”-
I can accept that; I am a Barcelona fan too. How could anyone not be, when they play such incredibly entertaining football most of the time? But at the same time I come to these forums not to promote a team I like (pretty impossible anyways if you’re an Arsenal fan at heart) and to convince everyone of my standing, but to hopefully start an engaging and lively football debate. Barca, as invincible as they may seem, can be beaten and will be beaten and the team most equipped to do so will probably be Madrid, simply because they are obsessed with unseating the Catalans and have spared no expense in doing so. They have even shaken up the whole operational structure of the club in order to do so, giving Mourinho more power than probably any Madrid coach has ever had. I personally loath Madrid, really hate them, and I mean passionately so, far more so than any other team, especially for their almost royal arrogance, and I also pretty much despise Mourinho and his uncompromising dedication to win almost for its own sake (that’s why Guardiola, almost comically called him a trophy-winning coach, and I kinda get what Pep was getting at – Mourinho’s legacy will be that he won titles, not necessarily that he contributed any new ideas to football like the truly great coaches did, or left a lasting legacy at any club he will have been at, although that might change now with Madrid), but that doesn’t mean that I cannot start a serious forum in their honour because, let’s face it, they are pretty fascinating right now. I love that they have a new mental toughness despite despising them at the same time, because a great team like the current Barcelona one needs a great adversary and Real Madrid is positively and deliciously villainess in that regard; not to say that the Catalans are angels. The great thespians Alves and Busquets have long ago shown us exactly how ruthless the Blaugranas outfit can be.
Anyways, before I ramble on for too long, I sincerely wanted to know how you though Barca might line up against Madrid, because I really do believe they will approach those games in a different manner. The El Clasicos are now unquestionably the biggest games in world football and with the introduction of Mourinho in particular, their character has changed, and so has Barca’s approach to them. There is an extra epic edge to them, because it really is kind of like a clash between Almost Good and Probably Evil.
01.08.2011
Aidan0s@ ravenbarber
I like your team except there is a small few changes that I would make.
Firstly i would have Di maria play where Coentrao is for a number of reasons. Even though Coentrao is clearly better defensively Di Maria did an excellent job last year of supporting Marcelo and keeping Alves quiet and he provides a greater attacking threat. I would want Di maria to do the same task as you have Coentrao doing both offensively and defensively Di maria does provide the option of him cutting in and trying to score (while Di maria is a little left legged, Coentrao is far more) if it weren't for a fine save by Pinto Madrid could have scored before extra time through Di maria coming and shooting and he clearly provides a threat with his crosses as that's how Madrid scored in the Copa Del Rey
Secondly I would have Coentrao play where Khedira is and have Alonso play deeper as well as having Sahin playing deeper but left of center. Its in theory similar to what they had in the Copa Del Rey except Sahin will be playing where Pepe was and Coentrao where Khedira was. While the players wont be man marking chances are due to the shape you might see alonso vs messi, iniesta vs coentrao and xavi vs Sahin very often. Of course this does raise the question of how is Alonso going to cope with Messi but if one thinks back to the copa del rey he didn't do too badly. This is largely due to Pepe covering and so when Messi received the ball there were two players on him or else Alonso would slow him down enough for Pepe to support. In this team coentrao would be providing support to Alonso as in advanced positions iniesta will usually be closer to Messi (making it easier to cover) Messi exchanges far more passes with Xavi (it is not uncommon for this to be the most common interplay between two barca players in a match). If your trying to get to a player its a hell of a lot easier to do it when he hasn't just received a pass form the player you were just trying to get the ball off of.
Although I wouldn't be that confident with this team playing in the Supercopa as Sahin is yet to play for Madrid in pre-season (due to injury) and it would be Coentrao's first game for Madrid and the only time he played in center midfield was in the pre-season this year so the team dynamic may not be great but I feel from a tactical perspective it would be good.
01.08.2011
RavenbarberHow I'd like Barcelona to line up against Madrid:
02.08.2011
RavenbarberPedro isn't really a creator, so Sanchez's inclusion in the middle will free Messi to be more of a purely attacking player, especially in an area where Madrid would feel uncomfortable facing his sideways dribbles. It would Marcelo, and probably Coentrao/Di Maria back, and Messi wouldn't have to contend with facing multiple midfielders in his false nine role. Messi will also be more of a threat for Villa, would be able to play more centrally, with his potent little slide rule passes.
This team will still be possession orientated, but in a different way. Sanchez is at his best centrally and he will be able to help in that regard. In Xavi, Busquets, Iniesta, Messi and Sanchez, you essentially have five playmakers, a nightmare situation for almost any team to face. And the perfect player to exploit that? Villa, in a slightly more central role, although still roving somewhat. Barcelona cannot be predictable against Madrid this year by simply trying to replicate last year's tactics. They will have to come with new ideas, because as we know and as I demonstrated with my earlier Madrid formation, Mourinho will simply pack his midfield and double mark Messi in that area.
Sanchez can be a majorly valuable asset in this regard, also because Villa can now finally play centrally. Iniesta is in a slightly more leftish, Robert Pires like position; not quite a winger, but an in-between, kind of player who can get to the byline occasionally, something wh hadn't see him do this past year because Villa occupied that space.
02.08.2011
02.08.2011
03.08.2011
Aidan0sI posted the diagram because it makes my description alot clearer and I didn't know how to do it when I originally posted.
03.08.2011
nvrIt's not long before the Spanish Super Cup. I doubt that Mo and Pep will take this too seriously, but it will give us a glimpse of what to expect this year. Looking at both teams signings I have feeling that it will be a repeat of last year. MBillinton10's prediction looks more likely to me.
04.08.2011
paadfootWell, I do not believe this season's Clasicos will be much different from the previous ones. 
I dont believe Guardiola would stop playing with Messi as a false nine, since he proved he is much more of a threat playing like that. Madrid proved over and over again that they can't cope with Messi between the lines, and Guardiola would be stupid to abdicate that and put Villa as a 'regular' forward. I also believe that Sánchez will come in for Villa, since he is much more of a vertical player than David Villa, and I find Pedro has a role more important for Barca than Villa.
11.08.2011
